Why do so many men “think about the Roman Empire”? And why does that meme matter more than we realize?
In this live conversation, I sat down with Professor Curtis Dozier, a classicist at Vassar College and author of the forthcoming book The White Pedestal: How White Nationalists Use Ancient Greece and Rome to Justify Hate (Yale University Press, January 6, 2026). What started as Professor Dozier’s attempt to debunk historical distortions by extremists became a much more uncomfortable discovery: there is plenty of material within ancient texts that genuinely supports white nationalist talking points.
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Table of Contents
1. Introduction: Meet Professor Curtis Dozier (00:00:00 – 00:07:00)
Professor Curtis Dozier teaches at Vassar College and specializes in how ancient Greece and Rome have been used throughout history
His upcoming book, The White Pedestal, examines how white nationalist movements draw on classical antiquity to justify their ideology
Professor Dozier’s academic journey began with Latin literature and expanded into studying how extremist groups deploy ancient texts
When he first started this research, he expected to find obvious historical distortions by white nationalists
Instead, he discovered that many white nationalists understand ancient texts quite well because there is genuine material in those sources that supports their politics
This uncomfortable realization forms the core argument of his book
2. Why Does Everyone Think About the Roman Empire? (00:07:00 – 00:13:00)
The viral meme about men constantly thinking about the Roman Empire reveals something important about our culture
Professor Dozier maintains a Google alert for mentions of the Roman Empire and shares examples from the past week: comparisons to American decline, Argentina’s economy, the Kansas City Chiefs, and even an Adult Swim cartoon
References to ancient Rome and Greece saturate our culture, making these civilizations fertile ground for white nationalists
White nationalists know that audiences already take ancient history seriously, so invoking it lends credibility to their ideas
Rome is typically invoked as a warning about civilizational collapse
Greece is typically invoked as a golden age of democracy and philosophy to aspire toward
3. What is “Western Civilization” Really? (00:13:00 – 00:23:00)
“Western Civilization” operates on three layers: political, historical, and geographical
Politically, it bundles together ideals like liberty, rule of law, human rights, and scientific rationality
Historically, it claims ancient Greece and Rome as the origin of these values
Geographically, it maps onto Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, but this geography is incoherent (Australia is further west than places we call “the East”)
These are either majority-white nations or places colonized by white Europeans
The term functions as a euphemism that justifies a global order where white-majority nations hold wealth and power
It attributes white dominance to superior culture rather than to colonialism, genocide, and resource extraction
The phrase has Cold War origins but remains politically relevant today, used by figures in the Trump administration and enshrined in Florida education law
4. Race, Ancestry, and the Racialization of Ancient Peoples (00:23:00 – 00:38:00)
Words like “ancestry,” “heritage,” and “inheritance” claim a biological connection between modern white people and ancient Greeks and Romans
When Stephen Miller says “our lineage hails back to Athens and Rome,” he implies white people today share the intelligence and creativity of ancient civilizations because of race
Race itself is a social construct invented during European colonization to categorize people for enslavement and genocide
Africans from completely different cultures, religions, and regions were grouped together as one “race” to justify their enslavement
Black Americans have responded by claiming connections to ancient Egypt, but the context is completely different: it is a reaction to being told you have no history worth celebrating
When Black people make claims about ancient Egypt, they face intense scrutiny and mockery, while white claims about Western Civilization go largely unquestioned
Both represent “racialization,” but one is a tool of oppression and the other is a response to it
5. Why Does Cleopatra’s Race Matter So Much? (00:38:00 – 00:43:00)
The controversy over casting Black actress Adele James as Cleopatra in a Netflix documentary illustrates how deeply people are invested in the racial identity of ancient figures
When a Black actor is cast, there are death threats and even government condemnation from Egypt’s Ministry of Culture
Critics never complain about Cleopatra being too tall, too short, or too old; the outrage is entirely about race
This reveals an assumption that ancient people were white and that depicting them otherwise threatens the narrative of Western Civilization as white inheritance
This defensiveness exists because if racial continuity is questioned, people might have to confront the violence and exploitation that actually produced today’s global inequalities
Adele James is not even particularly dark-skinned, showing that any hint of Blackness is enough to provoke backlash
6. Sparta at the Capitol: January 6th and White Nationalist Classicism (00:43:00 – 00:52:00)
Spartan imagery appeared at the January 6th Capitol insurrection alongside Confederate flags and nooses
Rioters wore Spartan-style helmets and flew flags reading “Molon Labe” (”Come and Take Them”), a phrase from the Battle of Thermopylae
These rioters, whether or not they have read ancient texts, draw on a long tradition of glorifying Sparta as a model of masculine valor
Ancient writers like Plutarch and Xenophon promoted a fantasy version of Sparta as a society dedicated to creating unstoppable warriors
The Capitol rioters saw themselves as modern Spartans making a heroic last stand against a threat to their civilization
Goebbels himself once said that visiting Sparta felt like being in a German city
This is not a major distortion of history; the ancient sources themselves glorify Sparta in ways that lend themselves to fascist politics
7. The Intellectual Right and the Great Replacement Theory (00:49:00 – 00:56:00)
The “intellectual right” consists of educated figures with PhDs and fluency in multiple languages who use ancient texts to promote white nationalist politics
Renaud Camus, a French literary figure and gay rights advocate, coined “The Great Replacement” theory claiming immigration will destroy white European identity
The French version of his book opens with a discussion of a Platonic dialogue to give his arguments intellectual prestige (he moved this to page 140 in the English version)
Tucker Carlson later promoted the Great Replacement to millions of Americans
Surveys showed around 70% of Republicans accept some version of this theory
Belief in the Great Replacement was the number one predictor of participation in the January 6th riot
The classical reference drops away as ideas spread, but the intellectual foundation helps them gain initial traction
Very smart people are figuring out how to make racist ideas respectable by connecting them to ancient Greece and Rome
8. Solutions: Expanding Our View of History (00:56:00 – 01:05:00)
History is not just Western European empires; ancient Greece and Rome receive outsized attention because of how our educational systems were built, not because they are inherently more important
Learn what non-white scholars and thinkers have done with classical material
W.E.B. Du Bois, Toni Morrison, Phillis Wheatley, Anna Julia Cooper, William Sanders Scarborough (the first African-American classical scholar), and Charles Chesnutt all engaged with ancient Greece and Rome
These Black intellectuals used classical knowledge to critique white supremacy rather than reinforce it; they understood how white people weaponized antiquity
Toni Morrison studied classics at Howard and used the ancient world in her novels as a critique of white supremacist politics, not as a source of inspiration
Edward Said’s Orientalism traces how Europe constructed “the East” as inferior starting from ancient Greek sources like Aeschylus’s The Persians
The Asian and Asian-American Classical Caucus is doing new work on Asian receptions of classics
Expanding who we learn from changes what we lea
Resources Mentioned
The White Pedestal: How White Nationalists Use Ancient Greece and Rome to Justify Hate by Curtis Dozier (Yale University Press, January 6, 2026). Pre-order with code WIN26 for 30% off at Yale University Press.
Orientalism by Edward Said
The Great Replacement by Renaud Camus
Plutarch’s Life of Lycurgus
Xenophon’s writings on Sparta
Works by W.E.B. Du Bois, Toni Morrison, Phillis Wheatley, Anna Julia Cooper, William Sanders Scarborough, and Charles Chesnutt on classical reception
Asian and Asian-American Classical Caucus (AAACC)
Follow Professor Dozier: @CurtisDozier on Bluesky
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Keywords
Western Civilization, white nationalism, ancient Greece, ancient Rome, Sparta, January 6th Capitol insurrection, Great Replacement theory, classical education, racialization, Cleopatra, white supremacy, race as social construct, Plutarch, Xenophon, Tucker Carlson, Stephen Miller, classical reception, W.E.B. Du Bois, Toni Morrison, Edward Said, Orientalism, Molon Labe, Battle of Thermopylae, The White Pedestal, Curtis Dozier
Thank you P. J. Schuster, Barbara Shields, Joy Path, zinc, Musings on Interesting Times, and many others for tuning into my live video with Curtis Dozier! Join me for my next live video in the app.
